DUST Search - [Feedback] We need a barrier of entry for Tanks

Quil Evrything wrote:

Fox Gaden wrote:

I am not concerned with the state of unskilled tankers against skilled tankers. I am concerned that if a team does not have a skilled tanker to clear the field of the unskilled tankers, then they are out of luck.

I also donGÇÖt like arbitrary limits. I donGÇÖt mind seeing 5 tanks on a rare occasion. I just donGÇÖt want to see it in every match.

As for the first part of above: I dont see a significant difference between what you wrote, vs
"I am concerned that if a team does not have a skilled tanker, to defeat the skilled tanker on the other side, then they are out of luck".

To look at it from another perspective;
I fail to see how one team dominating a match because they have an unbeatable 10milSP tanker on their side, is any better than one team dominating a match because they have a squad of militia tankers.

You seem to be favoring the first thing, yet against the second thing.
I say both are bad. But with the existence of militia tankers, at least a team-up of 3 of them, should be able to take out the 10mil SP tanker. In the same way that a team of 3 lesser beings, should in theory be able to take down one guy in uber-proto dropsuit.

And, in the same way, the "team up with 3" is equally available to all teams, in both situations, because of militia tanks.
This is a GOOD thing.

So, for your original request, of doing away with militia tankers, I personally would say it's a bad idea, for the reason i just described above.

For your concern of "too many tanks", the only fair, and direct way, is to limit number of tanks.
Yeah, you dont like that. but it's the only truly effective and fair way to limit them. SO, decide which you like less :)

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.


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Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1951	Posted - 2013.12.23 15:32:00 - [1] - Quote A Skill Point investment should be required to make a player successful in a tank. Currently players can be successful tankers without investing any points in vehicles. This is causing tank spam where there will often be 5 tanks on a single team. Tank spam is bad for the game, and extremely frustrating for infantry. If only dedicated tankers could be successful in Tanks it would be rare to see more than 2 tanks on a team. Two tanks can be avoided or dealt with much more easily by infantry than 5 tanks. It is a much better balance on teams of 16. Taking out the +5% HP bonus for the vehicle Armour and Shield skills was a mistake! All vehicles should have a 25% hit point nerf, and the Armour and Shield skills should get the 5% bonus back, so that no-skill tankers will be 25% weaker, and dedicated tankers will have the same health as they do now. That is, people with no points invested in vehicles should be 25% weaker than dedicated tankers/drivers/pilots. AV should be able to deal with no skill tankers easily enough that tanking is not a preferable course of actions for someone who is not committing skill points into vehicles. The cost of militia tanks should stay where they are now, so that new players who want to become dedicated tankers can afford to go that route. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1952	Posted - 2013.12.23 15:57:00 - [2] - Quote Ivy Zalinto wrote: Honestly I feel tanks are fine the way they are. Their hp isnt that strong at all when a couple of remotes and a flux grenade will pop the grand majority. You can also simply avoid them most of the time with the right setup of suit even if they are running scanners. Where I agree most players feel they should be able to take a tank on solo, it just shouldn't happen in my opinion. Where you and I disagree is that I donGÇÖt think that a single AV should be able to take out a dedicated tanker solo, while you think that someone who has all their skill point invested in Infantry skills should be invulnerable in a tank. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1954	Posted - 2013.12.23 17:48:00 - [3] - Quote Vin Mora wrote: As new tanker that just runs Militia Tanks, I see some wisdom in your words. However, tanks are inifinity harder to kill with AV now, so until a sweet spot is achieved where AV is useful enough to warrant use, then Tanks should remain where they are. Right now, my main AV fit is my Militia Sica with a Blaster. Remember, that their are far fewer militia modules then before, and we still don't have Large Missile Turrets without using LP. Plus tanker have skills for better/cheaper fitting requirements and shorter cooldowns. Also, for me tanks solve my issue with extremely low TTK, I will never get one-shot (or seemingly one-shot) in a tank, and that actually makes me wait to play more, and fight harder. If TTK for infantry was raised to the levels that it was pre Auto-Aim and Hit Detection patch(es) then I'd be on the ground more. I do have some sympathy for where you are coming from, as the TTK is the other big problem making DUST not fun for infantry right now. However, it is difficult to get reasonable data on the AV vs Tank balance with so many unskilled tankers around. One important point is that it has long been agreed between dedicated tankers and dedicated AVers that driving off a tank is almost as good as killing a tank. This was one of the key arguments around the notion that a single Infantry AVer should not be able to solo a tank. However, my experience in the week I spent testing AV in 1.7, was that if I managed to drive off a tank, two more tanks would come in and kill me. While tankers always thought that the balance should be 3 Infantry to take out one tank, the current situation often has tanks outnumbering infantry AV. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1961	Posted - 2013.12.23 20:11:00 - [4] - Quote I define Successful as getting more infantry kills than losses (even when there is an experienced tanker killing them) and going ISK positive. I am not concerned with the state of unskilled tankers against skilled tankers. I am concerned that if a team does not have a skilled tanker to clear the field of the unskilled tankers, then they are out of luck. I also donGÇÖt like arbitrary limits. I donGÇÖt mind seeing 5 tanks on a rare occasion. I just donGÇÖt want to see it in every match. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1961	Posted - 2013.12.23 20:27:00 - [5] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: This is a battlefield, not a playground where everything is controlled. Get out a tank and hunt down the squads of tanks if it is becoming such an issue. Stop whining about how one person should be able to drive off something with 7000 armor and shields. That is a ridiculous concept. A tank should be capable of mowing down infantry. Infantry mow down other infantry. Tanks kill tanks and dropships. If one team found the time to get together a squad of their friends who are tankers, and you think you can go in like the king of COD and just blow up all their tanks, then please go play COD. Honestly, if everyone has a tank these days, then it shouldn't be too hard to find them. Even better, make a squad in Squad Finder called Tankers Only. That should do something... Not Furious, just confused. There's a difference In your scenario there is no point in playing infantry at all. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1963	Posted - 2013.12.23 22:19:00 - [6] - Quote Artificer Ghost wrote: 501st, I'd just like to remind you that Fox is probably having a bad day (Start being Canadian again, gosh dernit), and he is more than likely smarter than you. He owns a successful schooling corporation with over 100 players (Or 200 now?), and co-founded a very large group of multiple schools, that has hundreds of people attending. TL;DR - He's most likely right in what he's saying. Ah, thanks, but I usually try to let my arguments stand for themselves, and if I felt the need to present my credentials in this matter I would likely reference my AV experience rather than the size of my Corp. Oh, and the GÇ£IGÇÖm smarter than you, so there!GÇ¥ defense never even occurred to me. I appreciate you trying to stand up for me though. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 1963	Posted - 2013.12.23 22:44:00 - [7] - Quote Quil Evrything wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: I am not concerned with the state of unskilled tankers against skilled tankers. I am concerned that if a team does not have a skilled tanker to clear the field of the unskilled tankers, then they are out of luck. I also donGÇÖt like arbitrary limits. I donGÇÖt mind seeing 5 tanks on a rare occasion. I just donGÇÖt want to see it in every match. As for the first part of above: I dont see a significant difference between what you wrote, vs "I am concerned that if a team does not have a skilled tanker, to defeat the skilled tanker on the other side, then they are out of luck". To look at it from another perspective; I fail to see how one team dominating a match because they have an unbeatable 10milSP tanker on their side, is any better than one team dominating a match because they have a squad of militia tankers. You seem to be favoring the first thing, yet against the second thing. I say both are bad. But with the existence of militia tankers, at least a team-up of 3 of them, should be able to take out the 10mil SP tanker. In the same way that a team of 3 lesser beings, should in theory be able to take down one guy in uber-proto dropsuit. And, in the same way, the "team up with 3" is equally available to all teams, in both situations, because of militia tanks. This is a GOOD thing. So, for your original request, of doing away with militia tankers, I personally would say it's a bad idea, for the reason i just described above. For your concern of "too many tanks", the only fair, and direct way, is to limit number of tanks. Yeah, you dont like that. but it's the only truly effective and fair way to limit them. SO, decide which you like less :) To Infantry with no AV there is no difference between a Militia tank and a Proto tank. 3 militia tanks firing on an objective from 3 different directions is a way harder to take cover from than 1 tank, no matter how good that one tank is. Infantry can generally avoid 1 or 2 tanks by taking Objectives on the other side of the map, but with 5 tanks all areas can be covered. It is hard to address the Tank vs AV balance when tanks outnumber AVers. Your idea of limiting the number of tanks to 2 per side conflicts with your idea of 3 militia tanks being the counter to a dedicated tanker. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else, there is the Learning Coalition.